Re: Re: Re: It doesn't look good for Tina the Tech Writer ... OK, this makes for a good segue

Subject: Re: Re: Re: It doesn't look good for Tina the Tech Writer ... OK, this makes for a good segue
From: Kathleen MacDowell <kathleen -dot- eamd -at- gmail -dot- com>
To: vincentpr -at- trfnova -dot- com
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 17:04:55 -0500

Sir Vincent,

There are schools/colleges that offer tech writing tracks. How do you
picture a certificate covering material that those students wouldn't offer?

I can't judge whether a certificate would make a difference in customer
attitude. Even so, there are some skills that only experience can teach,
and some that everyone can't learn.

I do wonder if the most skilled will end up designing interfaces, though,
and that will undoubtedly provide more respect.

Kathleen

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 3:45 PM, Vincent <vincentpr -at- trfnova -dot- com> wrote:

> Sticking with the core topic threads (Tina the TW, and my comments on
> TW recognition general):
> I certainly agree with the many points made by one of this forum's
> contributors in response to my submission on this:
> Indeed, if there were a TW certification, HR/hiring managers would or
> could use that qualification to filter applications. But I like to
> think that will serve as a motivation for continuing education among us
> (yes, I am deliberately mixing tenses for effect).
> Indeed, the recognition of a TW will never be what it should be until
> development (and other) managers recognize our true level of
> contribution (and stop thinking of some of you as labor and low on the
> totem pole).
> Also, I chuckled a bit when I read the analogy to 'brussel sprout'
> cake. Firstly, I neglected to fully think forward that I was writing
> to other writers with creative satire. Secondly, I love brussel spouts
> -- grilled or broiled -- but have never contemplated them in a cake.
> However, I have been inspired by this to develop a recipe for using
> them in quiche.
> Having said all that: While I respectfully agree with your perspective
> points, I still think that TW certification is good idea, would be a
> benefit to those who want to make a FULL career of technical writing,
> would ultimately result in more competitive compensation, and simply
> would raise the professionalism and skill-specialty acceptance of TWs
> in general. It would subsequently foster the manager recognition in
> concern.
> Sir Vincent
>
>
> On 10/18/16, Julie Stickler<jstickler -at- gmail -dot- com> wrote:
>
> Not to be a curmudgeon, but this conversation thread has drifted from
> being
> about Tina or about technical writing and is getting dangerously close
> to
> starting to talk about politics.
> I've had my fill of politics lately and would like to avoid it on
> TECHWR-L
> if at all possible.
> Thanks!
> Back to the word mines for me.
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:49 PM, Kathleen MacDowell
> <[1]kathleen -dot- eamd -at- gmail -dot- com
> > wrote:
> > I don't know much abt his preferred candidate, but that post strikes
> a lot
> > of chords for me. Always nice to have someone else to blame for once
> ...,
> > although it'll be cringeworthy. I also think political think has
> nothing
> > much to do with gender.
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 11:52 AM, Ron Hearn <[2]rhearn -at- central1 -dot- com>
> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Further to yesterday's discussion on Scot's attitudes toward women,
> there
> > > is this from his blog last week:
> > >
> > > [3]http://blog.dilbert.com/post/151737656851/the-era-of-women
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: techwr-l-boun[4]ces+rhearn=cucbc -dot- com -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
> [mailto:
> > > techwr-l-boun[5]ces+rhearn=cucbc -dot- com -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com] On Behalf
> Of Keith
> > > Hood
> > > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2016 1:56 PM
> > > To: [6]vincentpr -at- trfnova -dot- com
> > > Cc: techwr-l <[7]techwr-l -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com>
> > > Subject: Re: Re: It doesn't look good for Tina the Tech Writer ...
> OK,
> > > this makes for a good segue
> > >
> > > I agree that a good tech writer is just as valuable to the company
> as an
> > > engineer. But my experience has proven to me beyond any possible
> doubt
> > that
> > > the overwhelming majority of managers who make the retention
> decisions do
> > > not agree.
> > >
> > > Another certification in a field which is not valued by the people
> who
> > > make the retention decisions is not going to help. That's kind of
> like
> > > having a dozen layers of frosting on a Brussels sprout cake. It's
> not
> > going
> > > to win the baking competition.
> > >
> > > What needs to happen is for someone to finally come up with a way
> to
> > PROVE
> > > that the tech writer's work adds value to the product. There has to
> be
> > some
> > > way to express it in numbers and show that the work really does
> bump up
> > the
> > > bottom line on the quarterly report. Until that happens,
> certifications
> > may
> > > be useful in grading applicants for hiring decisions, but they will
> be
> > > meaningless to retention.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 3:10 PM, Vincent <[8]vincentpr -at- trfnova -dot- com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Friends,
> > > > When the first rush of replies on this flowed in, I got angrier
> and
> > > > angrier as I quickly parsed. Angry at y'all that is (no
> disrespect
> > > > intended here) for missing the critical issue against your
> current
> > > > chosen profession. I wanted to write then but I too, as Kathleen
> > > > understands, must choose my fires to quench. At the moment, I
> have
> > a
> > > > little time.
> > > > Being too long involved in IT, I have chuckled at select Dilberts
> > now
> > > > and again when people have point them out, but I have never been
> an
> > > > avid fan. That, and Mr. Adams' gender imbalance :)
> notwithstanding,
> > > > the real insult within the Dilbert installment under discussion
> is
> > > that
> > > > the TW character is being presented as less valuable than an
> > inherent
> > > > engineer asset. Nothing could be more untruthful or a better
> > example
> > > > of program management misperception.
> > > > Yes, of course certain senior engineers -- and even engineers
> with
> > > > seniority -- are essential and invaluable to an R&D team, and
> > deserve
> > > > to recognized as such. However, generally speaking, good
> engineers
> > > are
> > > > readily available and replaceable, but a good technical writer is
> > not.
> > > > The experienced and capable technical writer, while he or she
> > suffers
> > > > being regarded as a peer -- and mistakenly by Mr. Adams less --
> is
> > > > actually senior in contribution to most engineers. Without the
> > > > documentation process, application worklfow errors, system design
> > > > errors, database architecture endless loops, and coding foopahs
> of
> > > > every rushed and improperly tested kind would make it passed the
> > > > staging cycle. Without proper documentation there is lessened
> > > > accountability to management. The technical writer is above an
> > > > engineer. Engineers who don't take a TW's request for a meeting
> > > > seriously probably shouldn't be trusted to do their own work
> > > > excellently and should be let go.
> > > > Having spent some time working inside federal agencies, it always
> > > > bothered me how silly it is for the way PMP certification is
> > esteemed
> > > > (again, no disrespect intended, but experience trumps the PMP
> > > > certificate 100% of the time). I have long had a dream that
> > technical
> > > > writers need their own certification, such CPTW (Certified
> > > Professional
> > > > Technical Writer), likened to CPCM, CFCM, and to have that
> > credential
> > > > promoted and recognized properly. And while I have spawned many
> > ideas
> > > > on how to chase that dream, I am only now getting to
> semi-retirement
> > > > hours so that perhaps I can.
> > > > Thoughts? Reactions? Anyone want to work on/pursue establishment
> > of
> > > > CPTW with me?
> > > > Vincent
> > > > [9]www.linkedin.com/in/vincentpasqualeruvolo
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 10/17/16, Kathleen MacDowell<[10]kathleen -dot- eamd -at- gmail -dot- com>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > It's been interesting to see everyone's interpretations, which
> are
> > > > sometimes much deeper than my own.
> > > > I haven't seen Dilbert for many years, but I've always viewed him
> > > > similar
> > > > to a Tom and Jerry (or any other) cartoon.
> > > > He managed to convey my feelings about some of the idiocies we
> > > > encounter at
> > > > work; ah yes, restraining the fist of death.
> > > > Sad to say, some people have real grudges that are expressed in
> the
> > > > real
> > > > world. And truly, as hard some of the work/life realities are to
> > bear
> > > > sometimes, we have a lot more pressing things to deal with right
> > now.
> > > > Most of us are subject to some kind of inequalities, some of us
> more
> > > > than
> > > > others. It would be wonderful if it could be reduced...
> > > > Kathleen
> > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 12:46 PM, kafkascampi
> > > > <[1][11]kafkascampi -at- gmail -dot- com> wrote:
> > > > > Not to be a buzzkill (which means I am totally about to be a
> > > > > buzzkill), Scott Adams has some controversial views about women
> in
> > > > the
> > > > > workplace. This is one of the reasons I choose not to support
> him.
> > > > >
> > > > > Read more here:
> > > > > [2][12]http://comicsalliance.com/scott-adam-sexist-mens-rights/
> > > > >
> > > > > Chris
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 8:51 AM, Tony Chung <[3]
> > [13]tonyc -at- tonychung -dot- ca>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > False alarm. A week later Tina agrees to be pointy head's
> "work
> > > > wife"
> > > > > > [4][14]http://dilbert.com/strip/2016-10-14
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -Tony (also in Vancouver)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thursday, 6 October 2016, Ron Hearn
> <[5][15]rhearn -at- central1 -dot- com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Looks like Tina is getting the axe in today's Dilbert:
> > > > > >> [6][16]http://dilbert.com/strip/2016-10-06
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Ron Hearn
> > > > > >> Documentation Specialist
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Central 1 Credit Union
> > > > > >> 1441 Creekside Drive
> > > > > >> Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
> > > > > >> V6J 4S7
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> [7][17]rhearn -at- central1 -dot- com
> > > > <javascript:;><[8][18]mailto:rhearn -at- central1 -dot- com
> > > > > >> <javascript:;>>
> > > > > >> Tel: 604.730.6391
> > > > > >> Fax: 604.730-7792
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > > > > > Visit TechWhirl for the latest on content technology, content
> > > > strategy
> > > > > and content development | [9][19]http://techwhirl.com
> > > > > >
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> > > > > > Looking for the archived Techwr-l email discussions? Search
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> > > > >
> > > > > You are currently subscribed to TECHWR-L as
> > [26]kathleen -dot- eamd -at- gmail -dot- com
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> > > > --
> > > > Kathleen MacDowell
> > > > [19][31]kathleen -dot- eamd -at- gmail -dot- com
> > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > > > Visit TechWhirl for the latest on content technology, content
> > strategy
> > > > and content development | [20][32]http://techwhirl.com
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> > > > You are currently subscribed to TECHWR-L as
> vincentpr -at- trfnova -dot- com -dot-
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> > > > [22][34]http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/ for
> more
> > > > resources and info.
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> our
> > > > online magazine at [23][35]http://techwhirl.com
> > > > Looking for the archived Techwr-l email discussions? Search our
> > public
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> > > >
> > > > References
> > > >
> > > > 1. [37]mailto:kafkascampi -at- gmail -dot- com
> > > > 2. [38]http://comicsalliance.com/scott-adam-sexist-mens-rights/
> > > > 3. [39]mailto:tonyc -at- tonychung -dot- ca
> > > > 4. [40]http://dilbert.com/strip/2016-10-14
> > > > 5. [41]mailto:rhearn -at- central1 -dot- com
> > > > 6. [42]http://dilbert.com/strip/2016-10-06
> > > > 7. [43]mailto:rhearn -at- central1 -dot- com
> > > > 8. [44]mailto:rhearn -at- central1 -dot- com
> > > > 9. [45]http://techwhirl.com/
> > > > 10. [46]mailto:techwr-l-leave -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
> > > > 11. [47]http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/
> > > > 12. [48]http://techwhirl.com/
> > > > 13. [49]http://techwr-l.com/archives
> > > > 14. [50]http://techwhirl.com/
> > > > 15. [51]mailto:techwr-l-leave -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
> > > > 16. [52]http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/
> > > > 17. [53]http://techwhirl.com/
> > > > 18. [54]http://techwr-l.com/archives
> > > > 19. [55]mailto:kathleen -dot- eamd -at- gmail -dot- com
> > > > 20. [56]http://techwhirl.com/
> > > > 21. [57]mailto:techwr-l-leave -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
> > > > 22. [58]http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/
> > > > 23. [59]http://techwhirl.com/
> > > > 24. [60]http://techwr-l.com/archives
> > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > > > Visit TechWhirl for the latest on content technology, content
> strategy
> > > > and content development | [61]http://techwhirl.com
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> > > > [63]http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/ for more
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> > > > and info.
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> our
> > > > online magazine at [64]http://techwhirl.com
> > > >
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> > > > public email archives @ [65]http://techwr-l.com/archives
> > > >
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> > --
> > Kathleen MacDowell
> > [76]kathleen -dot- eamd -at- gmail -dot- com
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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> --
> Julie Stickler
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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> online magazine at [85]http://techwhirl.com
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> References
>
> 1. mailto:kathleen -dot- eamd -at- gmail -dot- com
> 2. mailto:rhearn -at- central1 -dot- com
> 3. http://blog.dilbert.com/post/151737656851/the-era-of-women
> 4. mailto:ces+rhearn=cucbc -dot- com -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
> 5. mailto:ces+rhearn=cucbc -dot- com -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
> 6. mailto:vincentpr -at- trfnova -dot- com
> 7. mailto:techwr-l -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
> 8. mailto:vincentpr -at- trfnova -dot- com
> 9. http://www.linkedin.com/in/vincentpasqualeruvolo
> 10. mailto:kathleen -dot- eamd -at- gmail -dot- com
> 11. mailto:kafkascampi -at- gmail -dot- com
> 12. http://comicsalliance.com/scott-adam-sexist-mens-rights/
> 13. mailto:tonyc -at- tonychung -dot- ca
> 14. http://dilbert.com/strip/2016-10-14
> 15. mailto:rhearn -at- central1 -dot- com
> 16. http://dilbert.com/strip/2016-10-06
> 17. mailto:rhearn -at- central1 -dot- com
> 18. mailto:rhearn -at- central1 -dot- com
> 19. http://techwhirl.com/
> 20. mailto:kafkascampi -at- gmail -dot- com
> 21. mailto:techwr-l-leave -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
> 22. http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/
> 23. http://techwhirl.com/
> 24. http://techwr-l.com/archives
> 25. http://techwhirl.com/
> 26. mailto:kathleen -dot- eamd -at- gmail -dot- com
> 27. mailto:techwr-l-leave -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
> 28. http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/
> 29. http://techwhirl.com/
> 30. http://techwr-l.com/archives
> 31. mailto:kathleen -dot- eamd -at- gmail -dot- com
> 32. http://techwhirl.com/
> 33. mailto:techwr-l-leave -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
> 34. http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/
> 35. http://techwhirl.com/
> 36. http://techwr-l.com/archives
> 37. mailto:kafkascampi -at- gmail -dot- com
> 38. http://comicsalliance.com/scott-adam-sexist-mens-rights/
> 39. mailto:tonyc -at- tonychung -dot- ca
> 40. http://dilbert.com/strip/2016-10-14
> 41. mailto:rhearn -at- central1 -dot- com
> 42. http://dilbert.com/strip/2016-10-06
> 43. mailto:rhearn -at- central1 -dot- com
> 44. mailto:rhearn -at- central1 -dot- com
> 45. http://techwhirl.com/
> 46. mailto:techwr-l-leave -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
> 47. http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/
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> 58. http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/
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