Re: Looking for classes in indexing

Subject: Re: Looking for classes in indexing
From: Jonathan Baker <jbaker2525 -at- gmail -dot- com>
To: Mark Baker <mbaker -at- analecta -dot- com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:58:50 -0400

Thanks for the info. A hybrid approach sounds reasonable. I haven't had to
do an index in a couple of years, but the next time, I'll have to give it a
try. Thanks, Mark.

Jon

On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 9:49 AM, <mbaker -at- analecta -dot- com> wrote:

> Index automation can only take you so far. For the book I referred to
> earlier, we experimented with index automation. The book is about
> structured writing, so naturally we used structured writing techniques.
> This included the annotation of subjects mentioned in the text, and of the
> subjects covered in chapters and sections. This is essentially what an
> index does -- it points you to the places were different subjects are
> treated in a document. So it follows that we should be able to derive an
> index from these annotations.
>
> This is already a much more controlled process than using software to scan
> an unstructured text for keywords, which is all that automated indexing
> software can do, short of an AI revolution that has not arrived yet. The
> subject annotations that we used noted the type of the subject and
> rectified the terminology (for example: {XML}(markup-language "Extensible
> Markup Language")). This gave us a significant degree of terminology
> control and allowed us to detect a lot of inconsistency in the book (as
> Richard mentioned earlier). It also allowed us to automatically create
> entries for the major types of subject matter discussed in the book:
>
> markup languages
> XML, 56, 68, 72
> HTML, 345, 403
> Markdown, 3, 76, 432
>
> The result was a not bad index, but certainly not as good as Richard
> wanted. In particular, it did not let us do things like this:
>
> constraints, 27, 228, 367â390
> auditing, 431
> cost of reuse, 153
> data entry, 315
> detecting duplication using, 414â415
> extensibility and, 334
> factoring out, 29, 42, 308
> managing reuse, 134
> media-domain, 29
> personalization, 167
> rhetorical, 246
> semantic, 312â315
> structural, 312â315
> types of schema, 389
> uniqueness, 174
>
> These types of entries put terms in their narrative context. This requires
> a human reading of the surrounding text. It can't be done effectively from
> subject-domain semantic markup and it certainly can't be done reliably
> (yet) by indexing apps working on unstructured text.
>
> Why is this important? Search engines have two big advantages over indexes
> (other than their enormous advantage in scope, which I mentioned earlier).
> First, indexes work on individual terms, while search engines can work with
> phrases and sentences. You can type an entire question into a search engine
> and it will use the whole sentence to discern what you are interested in.
> In other words, you can put your search terms in their narrative context up
> front by searching on the right phrase.
>
> Second, they have a ranking algorithm that does a remarkably good job
> (most of the time) at selecting the most relevant entry and putting it at
> the top of the list. Indexes, by contrast, list pages in numerical order.
> If you want to get really fancy, you can bold page numbers for the main
> entries for a subject, but that is not in any way specific to the user's
> individual query. Search engines not only rank the subject matter
> statically, they rank it for the known interests of the individual user.
>
> These entries that put terms into their narrative context help indexes
> partially make up for these deficiencies vis a vis search engines. They can
> only be created by hand, and Richard felt it was important to do this for
> the book, particularly in cases where a subject is mentioned many times. An
> undifferentiated list of 30 page references presents a rather daunting task
> to the reader. The context setting entries can help them narrow down what
> they are looking for.
>
> We did not throw out the automated generation of the index altogether,
> however. Rather, we added markup that allowed us to supplement the
> generated entries with human created entries (100% of which were created by
> Richard, who is way better at this sort of thing than I am). As a result of
> this hybrid approach, we were able to reduce the indexing effort
> significantly, while still incorporating valuable index features than can
> only be created by hand.
>
> I'm planning to blog about this and other aspects of the development
> process for the book sometime soonish.
>
> Mark
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: techwr-l-bounces+mbaker=analecta -dot- com -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com <techwr-
> > l-bounces+mbaker=analecta -dot- com -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com> On Behalf Of
> > Jonathan Baker
> > Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 7:22 AM
> > To: dick -at- rlhamilton -dot- net
> > Cc: techwr-l -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
> > Subject: Re: Looking for classes in indexing
> >
> > Iâm not into religious wars, so I wonât go there. However, in following
> this
> > conversation , it occurred to me that there may be some tools out there
> to
> > automate the indexing process. I didnât do a search, but did stumble
> upon a
> > tool called TExtract (texyz.com). I havenât used it, but may the next
> time I
> > need to do an index.
> >
> > Also, one of the best books about indexing was written by Ruth Canedy
> > Cross. Unfortunately, Indexing Books is out of print and only sometimes
> > available on Amazon.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > > On Jul 26, 2018, at 5:27 PM, dick -at- rlhamilton -dot- net wrote:
> > >
> > > I canât speak for Tim, but in my experience, I have uncovered
> terminology
> > problems while indexing a book (e.g., inconsistent use of terminology,
> > unnecessary use of synonyms, terms used before they are defined, etc.).
> It
> > also gives you a different perspective on a book, which can reveal
> problems
> > that you missed in editing. While indexing, I have found typos that were
> > missed in previous editing passes.
> > >
> > > But I wouldn't go so far as to say that itâs worth doing if you donât
> publish
> > the index; if I go to the trouble of doing an index, then it will be
> published:-).
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Richard
> > > -------
> > > XML Press
> > > XML for Technical Communicators
> > > http://xmlpress.net
> > > hamilton -at- xmlpress -dot- net
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> On Jul 26, 2018, at 14:12, Wright, Lynne <Lynne -dot- Wright -at- Kronos -dot- com>
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Can you elaborate on how indexing is a good way to review your work?
> > >>
> > >> The docs I used to index were several hundred pages long; it used to
> take
> > me DAYS to compile a properly edited index for them. That's a lot of
> time to
> > spend if you're not actually going to use that index; and I can't think
> of any
> > occasion where it helped me improve the actual content or structure or
> > anything.
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: techwr-l-bounces+lynne -dot- wright=kronos -dot- com -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
> > >> <techwr-l-bounces+lynne -dot- wright=kronos -dot- com -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com> On
> > >> Behalf Of Slager Timothy J
> > >> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 4:52 PM
> > >> To: mbaker -at- analecta -dot- com; techwr-l -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
> > >> Subject: RE: Looking for classes in indexing
> > >>
> > >> A search engine is an index. In a different form. If you are tagging
> and
> > adding synonyms, you are indexing. I'm all for new formats, but it is
> still
> > indexing (pointing to information).
> > >>
> > >> A side advantage to an index is that it is an excellent way to review
> your
> > work (or someone else's). The benefits here make it worthwhile even if
> you
> > don't publish the index.
> > >>
> > >> My 2p. tims
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: techwr-l-bounces+timothy -dot- slager=dematic -dot- com -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
> > >> [mailto:techwr-l-bounces+timothy -dot- slager=dematic -dot- com -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- co
> > >> m] On Behalf Of mbaker -at- analecta -dot- com
> > >> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2018 7:20 PM
> > >> To: techwr-l -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
> > >> Subject: RE: Looking for classes in indexing
> > >>
> > >> I'm old too, but let's face it, indexes are the paper substitute for
> a search
> > engine. Anything an index can do, a decent search engine can do better
> (yes,
> > including synonyms). More to the point, even the old are so habituated to
> > search now that the only way they are going to stumble into your index
> is if it
> > shows up in a search results.
> > >>
> > >> Unless, of course, they actually are reading on paper, because then
> the
> > index is the poor man's search engine, and in that case it better be
> good,
> > because it has a lot to live up to.
> > >>
> > >> And if there are those out there that still want to claim that
> indexes are
> > better than search engines, here is the clincher: An index only works
> when
> > you have a the right book in your hand. Which means you have to find the
> > book before you can use the index. But a search engine searches
> everything.
> > >> The reader does not have to locate the book first. Indeed, they
> probably
> > never know which "book" their results came from. They live in a world of
> > pages, not books, and they find pages using search. Every Page is Page
> One.
> > >>
> > >> If I was looking for a course to take in this day an age, I would
> take SEO
> > before I took indexing. Unless, of course, I was actually preparing a
> book for
> > publication on paper. (Which, as it happens, I am: Structured Writing:
> > >> Rhetoric and Process, real soon now from XML press. I think it has a
> > >> pretty good index, most of which is Richard Hamilton's doing.)
> > >>
> > >> Mark
> > >>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: techwr-l-bounces+mbaker=analecta -dot- com -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
> > >>> <techwr-
> > >>> l-bounces+mbaker=analecta -dot- com -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com> On Behalf Of Guy
> > >>> l-bounces+Ball
> > >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2018 6:40 PM
> > >>> To: 'TECHWR-L' <techwr-l -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com>
> > >>> Subject: RE: Looking for classes in indexing
> > >>>
> > >>> As Lynne noted, you really need to determine if an index makes sense
> > >>> for
> > >> the
> > >>> documentation you're creating - particularly if your audience has
> > >>> moved
> > >> into
> > >>> a modern mode of just "searching" for subject matter.
> > >>>
> > >>> We did away with indexes because we always delivered as a pdf file
> > >>> and found that our customer base generally does a simple "find" to
> > >>> quickly
> > >> locate
> > >>> what
> > >>> they wanted. (I sometimes wonder if they even care about TOCs
> > >>> anymore.) By doing away with indexes, we saved many hours (days in
> > >>> most cases) for a tech staff that was already too small and
> > >>> overworked to handle our
> > >> existing
> > >>> workload.
> > >>>
> > >>> I would recommend classes in Frame, some illustrator tool (your
> > >>> choice),
> > >> or
> > >>> some online tool you might think about moving to.
> > >>>
> > >>> (And before I get "hate mail" from indexers and other writers who
> > >>> love them, know that I love indexes myself when reading a
> > >>> particularly
> > >> technical
> > >>> manual. But I'm also "old" and like reading a paper newspaper every
> > >>> morning.)
> > >>>
> > >>> Guy
> > >>>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: techwr-l-bounces+mrcalc=pacbell -dot- net -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
> > >>> [mailto:techwr-l-bounces+mrcalc=pacbell -dot- net -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com] On
> > >>> Behalf Of Wright, Lynne
> > >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2018 9:45 AM
> > >>> To: Lin Sims <ljsims -dot- ml -at- gmail -dot- com>; TECHWR-L <techwr-l -at- lists -dot- techwr-
> > >>> l.com>
> > >>> Subject: RE: Looking for classes in indexing
> > >>>
> > >>> Aside from being able to maintain a high level of fussiness and
> > >>> focus for
> > >> as
> > >>> long as it takes to build, then refine refine refine an index, the
> > >>> key to
> > >> creating
> > >>> effective indexes is being able to figure out what super-succinct
> > >>> terms/keywords, and alternates for those terms, that users are most
> > >>> likely
> > >> to
> > >>> look for when they consult an index, and avoiding redundancies. I'm
> > >>> not
> > >> sure
> > >>> that that's something that can be taught in a one-size-fits-all
> > >>> class,
> > >> since it
> > >>> comes down to how well you know the product you are
> > documenting/what
> > >>> search terms are important enough to include, and how well you can
> > >>> intuit how your end users think.
> > >>>
> > >>> So I'd be curious to hear from people who have actually taken
> > >>> indexing courses, with regards to whether they found those courses
> > >>> particularly useful. Once you know how to add index markers with
> > >>> whatever tool you're using, and what syntaxes to use when entering
> > >>> index entries, what else do those courses cover?
> > >>>
> > >>> You may benefit more by creating an index or two, then running them
> > >>> past an experienced indexer who can edit/give you feedback on what
> > >>> to change, until you start getting the hang of what works/what
> doesn't.
> > >>>
> > >>> Keep in mind that as documentation moves more and more into
> > >>> electronic and web-based output, users probably rely more on search
> > >>> functions than indexes.
> > >>> It's the same concept, in that it comes down to figuring out optimal
> > >> keyword
> > >>> tags; but my point is, you may want to look for a course that is
> > >>> less
> > >> focused
> > >>> on old-school print-doc indexes, and more on search optimization for
> > >>> electronic content.
> > >>>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: techwr-l-bounces+lynne -dot- wright=kronos -dot- com -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
> > >>> <techwr-l-bounces+lynne -dot- wright=kronos -dot- com -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com> On
> > >>> Behalf Of Lin Sims
> > >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2018 11:51 AM
> > >>> To: TECHWR-L <techwr-l -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com>
> > >>> Subject: Looking for classes in indexing
> > >>>
> > >>> My employer has decided that everyone in the company should be able
> > >>> to get job-related training, and me and my fellow tech writer have
> > >>> been told
> > >> to
> > >>> find something to learn. Since indexes are something we're supposed
> > >>> to do and neither of us has experience with it, I thought that might
> > >>> be a good
> > >> skill
> > >>> to learn and I'm hoping for recommendations.
> > >>>
> > >>> I've got a couple of books on indexing (Larry Bonura's The Art of
> > >>> Indexing and Kurt Ament's Indexing: A Nuts-and-Bolts Guide for
> > >>> Technical Writers), but I think as rank newbies we would benefit from
> > some actual classes.
> > >>>
> > >>> I am not really interested in joining the ASI just to get access to
> > >>> what
> > >> appears
> > >>> to be an excellent set of webinars; indexing is an adjunct to our
> > >>> job, not
> > >> its
> > >>> focus. (Annoyingly, the Google blip says that STC members can get it
> > >>> at a discount, but I've found no way for STC members who are not ASI
> > >>> members to get the course.)
> > >>>
> > >>> The STC doesn't appear to be running its 2-day "Indexing Skills for
> > >> Technical
> > >>> Communicators" indexing course anytime soon, either.
> > >>>
> > >>> So, any recommendations? There's only two of us, so having someone
> > >>> come in to train is probably too expensive (small company, you
> know?).
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Lin Sims
> > >>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > >>> Visit TechWhirl for the latest on content technology, content
> > >>> strategy and content development |
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> > >>> a=
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> > 4359f97808d5f2851f84%7Cb87688c18bb44f8698754da105de8eda%7C0&am
> > p;sdat
> > >>> a=
> > >>>
> > SrFW8sl98VMaP%2F0mC1pQpUOxOkua4gtvT05DVFaFurg%3D&amp;reserve
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> > >>>
> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftech
> > >>> wr
> > >>> -
> > l.com%2Farchives&amp;data=01%7C01%7CTimothy.Slager%40dematic.com
> > %7C
> > >>> c3
> > >>>
> > 3f2f363a8e4359f97808d5f2851f84%7Cb87688c18bb44f8698754da105de8eda
> > %7C
> > >>> 0&
> > >>>
> > amp;sdata=EhfFcfEXANRUtK%2BFnvqD26Ruw4lm%2BH9CD3PlAT5wy4I%3D&
> > amp;res
> > >>> er
> > >>> ved=0
> > >>
> > >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > >> Visit TechWhirl for the latest on content technology, content
> > >> strategy and content development |
> > >>
> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftechw
> > >>
> > hirl.com&amp;data=01%7C01%7CTimothy.Slager%40dematic.com%7Cc33f2f
> > 363a
> > >>
> > 8e4359f97808d5f2851f84%7Cb87688c18bb44f8698754da105de8eda%7C0&a
> > mp;sda
> > >>
> > ta=SrFW8sl98VMaP%2F0mC1pQpUOxOkua4gtvT05DVFaFurg%3D&amp;reser
> > ved=0
> > >>
> > >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.te
> > chwhirl.com%2Femail-discussion-
> > groups%2F&amp;data=01%7C01%7CTimothy.Slager%40dematic.com%7Cc33f
> > 2f363a8e4359f97808d5f2851f84%7Cb87688c18bb44f8698754da105de8eda%
> > 7C0&amp;sdata=UW8KuGjAk7PnLWbJaRNCVCFrrr8o7SzH7m7IFEb90MI%3D
> > &amp;reserved=0 for more resources and info.
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> > hirl.com&amp;data=01%7C01%7CTimothy.Slager%40dematic.com%7Cc33f2f
> > 363a
> > >>
> > 8e4359f97808d5f2851f84%7Cb87688c18bb44f8698754da105de8eda%7C0&a
> > mp;sda
> > >>
> > ta=SrFW8sl98VMaP%2F0mC1pQpUOxOkua4gtvT05DVFaFurg%3D&amp;reser
> > ved=0
> > >>
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> > %7C
> > >>
> > c33f2f363a8e4359f97808d5f2851f84%7Cb87688c18bb44f8698754da105de8e
> > da%7
> > >>
> > C0&amp;sdata=EhfFcfEXANRUtK%2BFnvqD26Ruw4lm%2BH9CD3PlAT5wy4I%
> > 3D&amp;r
> > >> eserved=0
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > >> Visit TechWhirl for the latest on content technology, content
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> > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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>
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References:
Looking for classes in indexing: From: Lin Sims
RE: Looking for classes in indexing: From: Wright, Lynne
RE: Looking for classes in indexing: From: Guy Ball
RE: Looking for classes in indexing: From: mbaker
RE: Looking for classes in indexing: From: Slager Timothy J
RE: Looking for classes in indexing: From: Wright, Lynne
Re: Looking for classes in indexing: From: dick
Re: Looking for classes in indexing: From: Jonathan Baker
RE: Looking for classes in indexing: From: mbaker

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